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	<title>Comments on: MoinMoin considered harmful</title>
	<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/</link>
	<description>Our software is not patent cucumbered</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Till</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102505</link>
		<author>Till</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 12:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102505</guid>
					<description>Works (not so) fine with German. Means: using Geman as language reproduces the effect you speak about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Works (not so) fine with German. Means: using Geman as language reproduces the effect you speak about.</p>
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		<title>By: mathrick</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102515</link>
		<author>mathrick</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102515</guid>
					<description>Thanks, but from a quick look, it seems that the translation is complete, but links back to the English frontpage (ie. "not self-contained") above. Is that correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, but from a quick look, it seems that the translation is complete, but links back to the English frontpage (ie. &#8220;not self-contained&#8221;) above. Is that correct?</p>
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		<title>By: wingo</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102516</link>
		<author>wingo</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102516</guid>
					<description>An enjoyable rant :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An enjoyable rant :)</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102517</link>
		<author>terry</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102517</guid>
					<description>Wikis make fucking terrible web pages anyway and should be avoided at absolutely all costs.

Look  at Wikipedia even, utterly useless interface and search system, the best way to navigate wikipedia is fucking google</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wikis make fucking terrible web pages anyway and should be avoided at absolutely all costs.</p>
<p>Look  at Wikipedia even, utterly useless interface and search system, the best way to navigate wikipedia is fucking google</p>
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		<title>By: The Gay Bar</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102518</link>
		<author>The Gay Bar</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102518</guid>
					<description>&lt;strong&gt;The C++ of Wikis...&lt;/strong&gt;

In an article criticising the wiki engine MoinMoin I just read a great statement:
I realised that it’s the C++ of wikis — not only will it not solve your problems, it will cause new ones that will make you long for your original ones.

I love th...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The C++ of Wikis&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>In an article criticising the wiki engine MoinMoin I just read a great statement:<br />
I realised that it’s the C++ of wikis — not only will it not solve your problems, it will cause new ones that will make you long for your original ones.</p>
<p>I love th&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Igal</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102519</link>
		<author>Igal</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 13:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102519</guid>
					<description>Broken in Hebrew too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Broken in Hebrew too.</p>
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		<title>By: David Christiansen</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102520</link>
		<author>David Christiansen</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 14:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102520</guid>
					<description>Det er ret tosset at holde folk uden for det rigtige indhold hvis ikke de har det rigtige sprog i deres browsere.

I hope you could read that. Can't really tell how much Danish you've learned so far :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Det er ret tosset at holde folk uden for det rigtige indhold hvis ikke de har det rigtige sprog i deres browsere.</p>
<p>I hope you could read that. Can&#8217;t really tell how much Danish you&#8217;ve learned so far :)</p>
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		<title>By: mathrick</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102524</link>
		<author>mathrick</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 15:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102524</guid>
					<description>Jeps, kunne læse det fint. Mit dansk er ikke perfekt, men nok for at drive mit eget firma :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeps, kunne læse det fint. Mit dansk er ikke perfekt, men nok for at drive mit eget firma :)</p>
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		<title>By: Cezar</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102525</link>
		<author>Cezar</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 15:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102525</guid>
					<description>Trac isn't supposed to be used to make a wiki on Guinea Pigs. It's ment for code. The help being in the wiki has helped me on multiple occasions with Trac by allowing me to add to the help. While you maybe right about general wiki software not needing the help built in, you are wrong about it's place in Trac.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trac isn&#8217;t supposed to be used to make a wiki on Guinea Pigs. It&#8217;s ment for code. The help being in the wiki has helped me on multiple occasions with Trac by allowing me to add to the help. While you maybe right about general wiki software not needing the help built in, you are wrong about it&#8217;s place in Trac.</p>
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		<title>By: mathrick</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102527</link>
		<author>mathrick</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 15:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102527</guid>
					<description>No, I'm not. 100% of my contact with Trac has come through software projects, and every time I wished a fiery death upon whoever put the default content in. It makes finding the real information 10x harder because you can't just look for spots where something is written. As I said, help is good, but it &lt;b&gt;must&lt;/b&gt; be marked as such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;m not. 100% of my contact with Trac has come through software projects, and every time I wished a fiery death upon whoever put the default content in. It makes finding the real information 10x harder because you can&#8217;t just look for spots where something is written. As I said, help is good, but it <b>must</b> be marked as such.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Waldmann</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102544</link>
		<author>Thomas Waldmann</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 20:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102544</guid>
					<description>A fool with a tool is still a fool.

I won't go into details about some wrong and some true stuff you wrote as this is not the place to discuss about moin, just one thing:

You complain about moin's way of doing i18n, but it simply is the admin who has configured it wrong for his application and obviously has not read the configuration help pages (HelpOnLanguages, HelpOnConfiguration).

Since 1 or 2 years moin even has HelpOnLanguages as default front page to avoid that misconfiguration. And guess what -  some people ask us why they get that as front page instead of just reading it.

So for that, you're beating a dead horse.

And btw, pointing to a misconfigured site with a stoneage moin 1.3 install is not quite the best example for a moin site. Obviously the admin didn't care when installing it and does not care about maintaining / updating it either.

If you need more bad stuff to rant about: the are many unmaintained (moin) wikis with lots of spam in them - because admin and users don't care. Now blame moin for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fool with a tool is still a fool.</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t go into details about some wrong and some true stuff you wrote as this is not the place to discuss about moin, just one thing:</p>
<p>You complain about moin&#8217;s way of doing i18n, but it simply is the admin who has configured it wrong for his application and obviously has not read the configuration help pages (HelpOnLanguages, HelpOnConfiguration).</p>
<p>Since 1 or 2 years moin even has HelpOnLanguages as default front page to avoid that misconfiguration. And guess what -  some people ask us why they get that as front page instead of just reading it.</p>
<p>So for that, you&#8217;re beating a dead horse.</p>
<p>And btw, pointing to a misconfigured site with a stoneage moin 1.3 install is not quite the best example for a moin site. Obviously the admin didn&#8217;t care when installing it and does not care about maintaining / updating it either.</p>
<p>If you need more bad stuff to rant about: the are many unmaintained (moin) wikis with lots of spam in them - because admin and users don&#8217;t care. Now blame moin for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Satoshi Tanabe</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102551</link>
		<author>Satoshi Tanabe</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 21:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102551</guid>
					<description>日本語でもやってみたら、言われたとおりの結果になりました。ひどいですね、MoinMoin。

UI についても一言一句賛成です。どうして大きなプロジェクト（e.g. Mercurial）が MoinMoin を使うのかほんとに不思議。たぶん Python で書かれているからなんでしょうが、これは Python にとってネガティブな宣伝ですよね。

いい記事なので、あとで僕のブログで翻訳させてもらうかもしれません。

Hope you understood my Japanese. それでは。

- Satoshi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>日本語でもやってみたら、言われたとおりの結果になりました。ひどいですね、MoinMoin。</p>
<p>UI についても一言一句賛成です。どうして大きなプロジェクト（e.g. Mercurial）が MoinMoin を使うのかほんとに不思議。たぶん Python で書かれているからなんでしょうが、これは Python にとってネガティブな宣伝ですよね。</p>
<p>いい記事なので、あとで僕のブログで翻訳させてもらうかもしれません。</p>
<p>Hope you understood my Japanese. それでは。</p>
<p>- Satoshi</p>
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		<title>By: Brooks Moses</title>
		<link>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102730</link>
		<author>Brooks Moses</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 17:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mathrick.org/blog/archives/2008/05/08/moinmoin-considered-harmful/#comment-102730</guid>
					<description>Thomas @11: It's like spam, though.  "Opt-out with documentation of how to opt out" is not a valid substitute for opt-in.

This is because it's a failure of one of the major rules of user interfaces: The amount of documentation that the user needs to read should be (a) minimized, (b) no more than an amount proportional to the amount of complexity of the result that they want, and (c) clearly related to what the user wants to do.  A "MoinMoin will do this complex thing that requires lots of work to set up right, unless you read the documentation to tell it not to" setup clearly violates those rules -- a user who wants a simple wiki should not need to read documentation on how to set up language-dependent behavior, and should not need to go through the effort of disabling it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas @11: It&#8217;s like spam, though.  &#8220;Opt-out with documentation of how to opt out&#8221; is not a valid substitute for opt-in.</p>
<p>This is because it&#8217;s a failure of one of the major rules of user interfaces: The amount of documentation that the user needs to read should be (a) minimized, (b) no more than an amount proportional to the amount of complexity of the result that they want, and (c) clearly related to what the user wants to do.  A &#8220;MoinMoin will do this complex thing that requires lots of work to set up right, unless you read the documentation to tell it not to&#8221; setup clearly violates those rules &#8212; a user who wants a simple wiki should not need to read documentation on how to set up language-dependent behavior, and should not need to go through the effort of disabling it.</p>
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